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Thanks for showing me this post. This Forced Adoptions is a national disgrace in truthful view of the many thousands of girls/women tortured by inhumane and despicable loss, humiliation, isolation without supports or care in Australia, and numbering more than our soldiers who died in the Vietnam war. It's been documented that these women suffer too often the very same wounds or injuries as do returned veterans and I can understand this as a parent even as I have gratefully not lost my children. I'm wondering how much the government representatives on the board looking at this topical and sensitive social issue care. I stand up beside all the victims and am all for your reclaiming your origins and or having all you need to recover and grow. My best wishes lie with the victims and I'm saddened by their plights. James

To whoever and all who wrote about the Chief Executive from NSW Human Services Community Services "Gallard's Submission" I add I too am opposed to hers and others in similar positions of "authority" continual unconscionable use of secrecy, cover ups, distortions and lies to protect themselves against the truths of the evil they have done and do. Forced adoptions are evil. The morally just and reasonable have to speak up more about all this. There are good or morally concerned people and bad or morally sick people. Make governments, charities, churches and corporations accountable. Accepting I do not all have nor are behaving unconscionably, too many are. Senate inquiries I watch on television show me an intolerable inhumane lack of senisitivity and humanity with topics about people that are highly sensitive and personal. That's wrong. Somehow "Sensitive Material" appears to belong to other than very personal, individual and collective stories and atrocities, this is all part of the distorted war or terrorism. Lastly, what about looking at the terror the "authorities" are imposing on sensitive and vulnerable people. I have to end with reiterating Forced adoptions were/are evil Anthony

I recently met several women who have gone through a lot of what this news media is telling. One told me about her reunion with her biological son. It must be a nightmare to come face to face with someone you've been parted from for years, and someone whom you lost through malicious malpractices and control freaks in any time frame. It was from one of the few I met who talked with me openly and truthfully, who also showed me pictures she received at reunion with her biological and rejecting son. She was handed a few photos by her son, one was of the adoptive parents (whole lot older than her) and these parents had the American Flag waving in the background of their two wedded faces. I'm not kidding you I felt embarassed for these jerks of wantobe parents who couldn't conceive their own and wanted some vulnerable victims, who also hung their caps on the American flag even though they were fair dinkum Aussies. Imperialism on the adoption scene. (they'd watched too much Fox obviously, read too much Murdoch or plain had no brains at all) There was another pic. a young adolescent boy shoving chicken into his mouth. The adoptive son told the biological mum at reunion 'My parents wanted me to join the military when I was adolescent, that I did, but I had to put on a lot of weight to get in there, I was too skinny' 'I hated it and it wasn't me, but I went there'. (Control freak adoptive parents and what a misfit they were. Made me think who does the choosing.) Next I saw another photo the biol. mum was given by her adoptive son: the skinniest most malnourished infant and yes the very son. I couldn't help thinking well they bloody well denied the mum feeding the baby and this is the baby as it was at adoption's first photo, a total crime against humanity in that one photo said heaps and much was in all those photos and in the mothers words which had solid facts to backup her story. I want to see this Inquiry reaping apologies and admitting their mistakes finally. What I heard and saw from three women who were victims of this travesty of justice to say the least has haunted me. Who the hell takes a baby away from their biological mum in the ways the Senate Inquiry has or is investigating? This is too serious for any politician or political party to promote their own agenda on. Rachel you understand who you're representing. You are as they/us all; a fellow citizen. Sam

The Senate Inquiry bureaucrats have been asking questions of witnesses. The questioning has been both patronising and condescending. The Senate Inquiry bureaucrats think the victims of forced adoptions are either too ill or feeble minded, and they are showing complete lack of respect to these people. This inquiry is meant to be serious and not another go at the victims of one of the worst human rights abuses in Australian history, yet the bureaucrats talked down to the witnesses. This is yet another example and repetition of the negative, destructive and vile power abuse stemming from a top down government who values profits above people and has not other value. I'm angered at the way this whole inquiry has been conducted and find it all just cause for Human Rights Watch to intervene or some other less patronising agency for victims of tragic past wrongs. These women were and are clearly not feeble minded. The values of the government of the day are now in question and I'm very active with my anger and will make sure further media identifies the present government as having a vile need to always speak down to their and my fellow citizens. The State Territory and Federal governments think they are above the law, and are puppets pulled by people whose value is this alone - Profits over people. Vile, vicious and disgraceful. Sincere and morally accountable governments do not talk down to their fellow citizens no matter what their socioeconomic profiles. For the victims I would advise taking this further along until your justice is given you in a dignified and human fashion. This is healthy. Profits over people is very unhealthy for everyone ultimately. This pattern of bureaucrats honing in on finances over people has come to a place where abusive power mongers want to rule without any remorse for all their errors and tortures such as the severest emotional abuse the victims of forced adoptions suffer.

They inflicted severe physical and mental pain on the mothers of many thousands of unmarried women and girls in the name of family for either infertile or needy adoptive parents. These physical and mental pains do amount to torture. The mental anguish of this mass infliction on very vulnerable mothers is not only unlawful it is also horrifying when you realise the anguish doesn't ever go away. One woman at a Salvation Army home in Marrickville was shown her after-birth a clot of blood as if it were her born infant. Her doctor had left and this was presented to her not her infant. She only saw her infant once to dress and under the most puntive directives. That one vision has caused her to see flashbacks again and again of white sheets and this metal bowl with a terrifying clot of blood which was not her daughter born to her but afterbirth. This is torture of one form. No one told her she had given birth to a beautiful daughter who was to be taken from her by strangers who had no organic link with her and her history or background. Another image this woman speaks of is signing a paper she couldn't see. Her tears were profound as she knew they were commanding not asking her to sign or lose her own life. This is another facet of torture. The same woman was denied food for fourteen days and received one small slice of cake to eat (denying food is one way to gain the signature they required and they wanted this that badly) whilst in hospital run by a corporation who will not admit their wrong and show no remorse today about what she and I can only imagine others also had inflicted upon them. What kind of corporation or church run institution can do these kinds of things and get away with them time after time. What kind of professional health care worker could have done this to one woman and if one why not all the rest. I'm sure this wasn't personal and it most certainly wasn't professional gyno. health care protocol. This woman today has nightmares and cannot sleep for fear she wont wake up. This woman has every knowledge of papers that were lost, destroyed or shredded that she signed that the Salvation Army will not admit to ever pushing in her face to sign under duress. This woman was a minor and didn't have to sign any papers as she wasn't old enough to do so. There is a lot for this church corporation to answer for and if they can't repent they will continue to repeat their pattern of torturous abuse on vulnerable others. I raise all this because I believe the Salvation Army are holding back and still have a prejudice against unmarried mothers. I have a file that reads as such and it's intolerable. I am asking the Salvation Army Head Office Personnel to start looking at their role in Forced Adoptions as Dr. Geoff Rickarby states clearly they are one part of a wider group of wrong doers who stubbornly and without conscience wont concede to any past errors as far as forced adoptions are concerned even as they were at the forefront of very many. For the woman who I admire for eventually finding an identity and a conscionable admirable character who still has to attend counselling and may have to all her life I take my hat off. Her character with depth of empathy and humanity is immense and remarkable. She has not done unto others as they had done to her. For the Salvation Army who are known torturers I am well versed in who and where I will send any of my clients and none will go to that organisation for care of any kind not whilst I maintain my own conscience and professional responsibility to name and shame people who outright tortured vulnerable unmarried woman for funds and favours to what were supposedly better off parents, and with their assumptions and prejudices that exclude ignorance as any excuse. It never is. The biological mother I know was and is the better off in ways no amount of money can accommodate. The Salvation Army have a great deal to answer for and it matters not a hoot whether this happened the day before yesterday or twenty years ago. When are they going to apologise for their terrifying role in forced adoptions in Australia? Charles D.

Senator Rachel Siewert nobody thinks it's o.k.to separate a baby from his or her mother and vice versa. It's a torture to do this. It's a very (I emphasise VERY) profoundly psychologically trauma to separate the mother from the baby. Forced Adoptions have made milllions all over the world very angry and it's healthy anger that the Australian governments owe the victims of this travesty an apology and to ask them for their forgiveness for this overt and covert torture that has claimed too many lives and diminished too many human values in our society. Malcolm

As Dr. Geoff Rickarby poignantly and factually showed us all in his now reknwoned and respected NSW Parl;iamentary Inquiry into Adoption Practices [Excerpts from Dr. Geoff Rickarby's Submission] for a previous Standing Committee on Social Issues, the natural mothers were not *drug addicts*. (If there were some they 'were uncommon' and he observed very many for many, many years now having a profound depth of inights into past forced adoptions.) Read Bronwyn Bishop's government bent on adoptions today being fully aware of her stand on a lot and there's the herd mentality in there as well as discrimination yet again. I've no doubt she fully supports the infertility industry's all over the world. There has to be a stop to the discrimination, stigmatising and negatively labelling of unmarried mothers and their babies. Too many in government are in bed with the infetility industry and that's further clues to hate crimes such as Forced Adoptions which are just that due to discrimination. I don't believe the Greens are doing this even as they differ in their views about subjects. I give this social injustice my support and hope for the innocent vicrtims who were brutalised beyond any civil, decent or human capacity. Cheers Abi

i was a mum who baby was forced adoption my mum was sick and my dad was a heavy drinker i was taken away from my parents and went to court as i was neglected child i was put in a catholic girls home where i was mistreated so i run away several times i was looking for some love which i have never had i run away and fell pregnat i went to a salvation army home for unmarried mothers they were just the same as the catholics they took my baby there is some paper i didn't sign and some the other i was forced by holding my hand and it did happen to people in unmarried homes i was a lot of thing that happened to other people and i was threating if i said anything things would happen to me i love my son then and still do now i miss the birthdays easter mother's day and any otheer day he will always be in my heart

I've written a bit about the Corporation and Church (all one in this instance) the Salvation Army and in response to Evelyn. I don't know if it will be included however I outline how Dr. Geoff Rickarby writes in his Senate Inquiry Submissions how the Catholic Church and the Salvation Army were two players in Forced Adoptions who were *untouchable*. One has now apologised, the Catholic Church, whilst the other has remained deafeningly silent and they are The Corporate (in over 120 countries) Salvation Army. Why are the covering their faces I ask again? I also wonder is it because they don't want further scrutiny and criticism as they have received from their discriminatory views about our fellow family the homosexuals amongst us all who are with all human rights to dignity and social inclusion (yet not much *inclusion* with The Salvation Army.) Why not? Thanks again Abi(gail)

I second Frank's comment. Truth of the matter is the Salvation Army are pathetic. I know of a woman who is well-known in many circles and whose contributed with a lot of creative work. She was admitted to Bethesda Salvation Army Hospital as a private patient and with her own private doctor even as she was a child really, adolescent. What "kindness and care" did she get as a patient and paying one: She was denied foods for fourteen days whilst kept sedated and the doctor didn't know what was happening as she wasn't able to talk. she went into shock. The doctor apparently made rare visits as it was right on Christmas, but the staff made sure they got this girl at the time she was in "care" to sign a form under draconian cruelty measures (no foods) as well as other humilations, cruelties and ultimately forms of torture. They showed this woman her after-birth instead of her baby when her son was born. The only time they allowed her to even see her baby was when the adoptive parents had come to collect him, and she didn't even know how to dress her baby as she was in tears and anguish,/ She did dress the baby yet not knowing the commands were not warranted; and has flashbacks of a lot of the profound trauma even with supports today. The flashbacks never cease she has told me a few of them (I've been in shock), and I now am understanding of how pathetic the phrase is "get over it". With forced adoptions and the loss therein there are specific areas of a woman's life where she can;t just "let it be". The Senate Inquiry has raised a lot of anguish for this woman. I'm all with Evelyn and all with this woman and all with a national and state as well as territory apologies. Women don't have to bear the brunt of others discriminations and malpractices and when they do justice does eventually come to the fore. Ultimately these women now want to move forward with a determiation yet without authorities showing some basic principles and places like the Salvation Army owning what it did the stigma remains. The stigma and scar remains on the Salvation Army and it's cohorts also. That stigma is a scar and stigma on the national psyche as someone I read wrote. Mothers and their families matter. Phillip

This website is very informative. I know there is still discrimination of women with babies alone. I understand from a relative perspective how terrifying it must have been for the mothers and their babies when they were coerced to sign and do what no one had any right to ask of them. I also know the hospital's and one in particular are indecent in their apologies continuing to imply fault and blame on the natural mothers, this being the Royal Woman's Hospital in Victoria. They're spokeswomen who I read in the news talked as though she didn't care at all except to cover the hospital. The patients mere outside of it all. What a joke.I thought this social issue was about 'caring'. It's time to look at why people are trying it on again yet again discriminating. I'm not against adoptions of babies from wartorn countries and the like, but in Australia no matter what decade it's as I said terrifying to read all I've read and hear all I've heard on television about these vile acts imposed on innocent people. I'm wondering if Australia is going to grow up, or at least start to care. Samantha

The Human Rights Commission is peak government body meant to look at discrimination and not least marital status discrimination. One of the most outstanding facets of forced adoptions is the truth the mothers were unmarried and thereby deemed "unfit* to care love and nurture their own biological babies. The Human Rights Commission has Laws and one of them is it submits input into Parliamentary Inquiries (including ones such as Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions) and yet this peak Human Rights Commission (and the Commissioner who'll be leaving post in July to be taken over by another "Commissioner") has without reason as well as without any explanation given to anyone who asks them why they have neglected this social injustice and obviously to many people ignored this social injustice completely. A lot of people are asking why? Thanks George

James again. Whats big wrong in forced adoptions is the victims were and still are scrutinised and judged. I was adopted out but didn't know the real story 'till too late and can see I was and my mum was and still are being scrutinised and judged all through our seperated lives. {Thats not fair. Thats unforgiveable.} Go figure that too.

Tomorrow night on 4 Corners there'll be a show called 'Given or Taken?' about forced adoptions. (it's not only the question mark that has aroused a lot of peoples justifiable ire and for some justifiable outrage.). The programs all well and good except when you realise the title to begin with is negative biased and questioning harshly the integrity and honesty of hundreds of forced adoption targets who've submitted to the Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions not excluding the many other thousands who are known to have suffered from this social injustice. Many still do to our national shame. It's recognised 4 Corners is government subsidised news media. 4 Corners may be showing a program that is very much with the direction of the government behind it. This is worth thinking about. Further public Ire and outrage if this it truth. It's recognised by conscionable people now the harrowing stories are too many and too many to discount as not factual as they have commonalities. They also come from people who seek only one thing justice for what they had to go through, what many could not endure and no mother and baby should ever have to endure. Some have called it torture, I and mine would have to agree it certainly is Very profoudly psychologically traumatic to lose your infant at birth via force or coercion; any form of bullying and it happened en masse as is evidenced by the findings on the Inquiry into Forced Adoptions. Some of but not all the psychological and physical abuses used against the Mothers and the Babies were: Stilboestral used to de-lactate mothers milk, a carcinogenic drug, without the mothers knowledge nor permission to accept. Not allowing the birth mothers to give their babies their own human sustenance and putting their own lives at risk of cancer. Pillows over heads or heavily sedating drugs used, many to point of near (at times certain) unconsciousness, rampantly given the mothers to sedate them into a state of further than already confusion to sign (under duress) papers to lose their infants to perfect strangers. Documented isolation of the targets Mothers with Infants no less, carrying them in their wombs and then birthing them; another form of bullying bordering if not factually torture. Stigmatising and labeling like cans the mothers as 'bad' 'not good enough' 'wantonly giving up their own blood' 'unwed thereby unfit to mother'. Stigmatising the babies as if they were (as long ago were labelled) 'illegitimate' a term not in usage far too many decades now. Not allowing the mothers to see their own born infants at birth, a normal practice by ethical nursing and doctoral staff at materinity facilities, denial of mother/baby nurturance an loving care. Shaming and blaming mothers who asked for information as until the 90's in most states (yet not all) mothers were denied knowing anything (by law) about their growing children and vice versa. Shaming and slandering mothers who were the constant outcasts of certain conservative members of society who discriminate/d on the grounds of marital status and turned away from their own throwing them to the wolves. Surrounding all this ABC 4 Corners television have already publicised their agenda and it reads there will be at least one social worker and other hospital staff who were working at the hospitals (or homes) where these Forced Adoptions occured. They will be on one side and the victimised mothers on the other. Like a debate yet this is a complex and senstive social injustice not a game. These staff members (who'd by now be elderly you'd think as most of the targets were very young) have already publicly said on the 4 Corners program advertisement: 'we didn't ask them to sign' (under duress), and 'the mothers didn't want to see their babies'. If this were the case it would have been the very rare exception and not the rule so why even raise these staff to raise this rubbish. They did want to see (and love) their babies, it's been shown now. They were coerced to sign what they didn't know anything about, that's also proven truth. Of course you have to realise they/the ex-staff, have no choice to say otherwise because if they did there would be further outrage than there already is about Forced Adoptions and the abuses therein. The public are sick and tired about hearing of families torn apart from Forced Adoptions, It's by this time a National Shame. Public ire and outrage about it all is real. There would also be reason for these staff to be held highly accountable, unless they lie as it appears they are going to if we read the advertisement correctly and it was made public without distortion? The staff on the coal face didn't want to lose face when Forced Adoptions were happening and certainly don't want to do so today. Their reputations were and are being scrutinised and judged. This wont be any less if they continue this line of 'the mothers didn't want to see their babies', and of course 'we didn't ask them to sign papers' etc..Hogwash. Neither do certain callous conservatives behind the whole national disgrace that forced adoptions were still are want to lose face and stand accountable. Yet they are. There's something dodgy about a program titling itself 'Given or Taken?' (question mark) after the facts of abuse have been unearthed and proven; empirical data unravelled. There's something dogy about fact the public who watch 4 Corners television or see this on Monday Night 8.30pm 27th February 2012 or later on iVIEW; will be shown two sides, one with a conflict if interest the workers of the time (it sounds fair yet when you look deeper it isn't) the other being the victimised Forced Adoptions Targets. One of these has a 'conflict of interest' that stounds out a mile and these are the adult professional staff who were practicing their social wortk and 'caring roles' for the mothers and their babies who lost (not gave) their babies to Forced Adoptions. I'm unable to abide ABC Television, and Radio going this political to this extent and in the supposed name of truth news media on a social injustice as this human one. Life matters. The only reason my wife, family and I will be watching this program is to see if the victimised will yet again be intimidated and floored and to be able to record this if it happens. If this does occur it reflects back to ABC to be accountable and scrutinised. The victimised have gone through enough, there's no need for ABC to be this insensible and insensitive. 'Given or Taken?' this title alone leaves the public perplexed and steamrollers over all the empirical data that's emerged about the abuses suffered by targets of Forced Adoptions. It's noteable this program goes to air two days prior to the Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions giving the Australian people their Report. Thankyou 91������̳ Weekly. The Byrnes

Maybe it's not good enough to say Sorry, Apologise or ask the targets of Forced Adoptions (Adoptees and their Mothers and Fathers) for their Forgiveness, and it's all about what they actually do to show that Apology or Sorry or ask for Forgiveness is Sincere and followed through. I think so.

I wrote something about 4 Corners which I now see was not fair or right. The 'Given or Taken?' was just a title. Though possibly title's draw attention and may need to be revised? What I warched and actively listened too on this program what my friends and family saw was sensitive journalism and a whole lot of terrible sadness from the targets, as well as very fine talks from staff and Shirlee Swain, and for my self especially Dr. Geoffrey Rickarby who I know to be so aware about forced adoptions from many many years of working with these. What a fine program and I hope ABC air more after the Report is finalised. Thankyou ABC. Please excuse my cynicism or whatever it was I expressed prior. Thankyou 91������̳ weekly

All forced adoptions babies were robbed from their natural mothers by stealth, deception, discimination, ommissions of duty of care or due care and patient care and mistreatments that amount for many to tortures which produced Very profound pysychological and it's other aspect physical traumas which are often ongoing. There is some reprieve with specialised professional non drug often grief counselling or non drug analysis. That answers the question about 'stolen babies'. Whether they be from indigenous, anglo saxon, european or any other culture the mothers, and fathers who admitted paternity, their infants obviously, were not given any voices choices or supports to even hold feed love and nurture their own flesh and blood let alone raise them into childhood and then adulthood.

I'm here saying I think the Greens deserve a lot of credit for the now released Report. For being so tireless and extending of themselves with this Senate Inquiry into forced adoptions. They instigated it via Senator Rachel Siewert, highly commendable, and they didn't stop until they gathered enough evidence and wide overview from not just the submissions, though there were approx. 400 of these if not more. There were forces that didn;t want these truths to be unearthed, we all know this. However, they are now as several Senators have rightly said 'in the history books as truth,' 'forced adoptions from traumatised, bullied and highly vulnerable mostly adolescent mothers with their infants'. The reports been tabled and now there is the follow through which the Report has recommended. It should be of interest to all and any who care about our fellow man and the past social injustices where any human rights or unethical to degree of horror acts happen. It is to many I know. Thanks 91������̳ Weekly for leaving your site open as this all progresses. (The work has been done but the apologies from state and territory plus commonwealth have as yet been given etc.) Carl

The woman whose invisible team and self stood and stand behind the Northern Territory Intervention Nicola Roxon (minister) "has to consider the (Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions) REPORT before any recommendations ..." This is disgraceful such a social injustice as this one (or many) has been given to her and her colleagues (unseen)to "consider" What next Nicola. You get to choose every Report that carries any weight, You and your invisible team. We all stand by the victimised and the REPORT as tabled, those of us conscionable. In hope Carl

It's slightly different V.V. Some day there may be a Senate Inquiry into the Northern Territory Intervention as Prof. Lorissa Berendt has said. The Senate Inquiry demands that even someone like Nicola Roxon and her advisors do the right thing. This is very different to the N.T. Intervention. I can see how you could be dubious about Nicola, who can't. On the other hand she stands accountable scrutinised and judged (who knows what else, maybe out the door) if she hasn't noticed the public outrage at Forced Adoptions as well as the Report's rightful recommendations as aired in news anyway. Best to the victimised, you're on the map and we care as a nation about your well being. We're all behind you with positive well wishes only. Cheers John

The prorgan aured on ABC 4 Corners on 25th February 2012 namedly 'Given or Taken' about Forced Adopions was vetted. It's worth all decent men and women especially the government examining the footage from Nuremberg Trials War Trials from 1945 - 1949, there's a similarity in the vetting. With exceptions of the victimised and Dr. Rickarby maybe one or two others, the whole show was professionals saying "they" instead of "I". That's atrocious and professionally filed now. Perfect legal cover up for Senator Rachel Siewert's what is commendable Inquiry. Yet exposed for what it was now. Even the Senator couldn;t say the truth that sgning under duress is illegal, or that it was all illegal. Vet and you think you'll get away with this. You will not Shameful and very telling of what this government and the news media are allowing as per their directors, to be shown to the public. Shameful to all concerned. Truth media is needed now. My character goes out to the only people with character on the whole show, because they spoke truth and for themselves as one, not they, those individually victimised. The Stewarts

I think The Stewarts meant *Vetted* and that's appropriate, Good on the writers of that comment it does show us all some truisms. Cheers Ricky

I've made a mistake on this website saying it was Nicola Roxon and her advisors who instigated the NT Intervention when it was another government and it was the politician Jenny Macklin who said 'closing the gap' whilst widening it to her shame. Jenny Macklin and her advisors are who I really meant. I apologise for this error, it was a human error. Appointed for now ministerJenny Macklin and her advisors have a lot to answer for regarding their appalling atrocious actions and demoralising the original peoples in the Northern Territory Intervention. Causes and effects on our original peoples another shameful past and present. Differently, and on topic, as far as I know the forced adoptions Report is now out and it's I'm told worth reading though lengthy, not too long. I stand by my other comments regarding the unconscionable organisations, governments corporations and churchs (some churchs haven't as yet apologised) Am concerned about this social injustice and proactively concerned. Cheers John

The NSW Government ignored the 1994 Parliamentary Inquiry into Forced Adoptions and so did the Benevolent Society who have their P.A.R.C.'s where people had to go to pay for ifentifying info. and organise reunions, and as latter have apologised, and were part of it they all should have nothing to do with anything but further apologies and compensations to targets of forced adoptions. NSW government ignoring that Inquiry is shameful. It had to take 2011 and 2012 before this authentic Inquiry cam about. Shame on NSW Government, they always seem to turn away from their responsibilities. They need to apologise today, as well as the other states and territories except Western Australia who already have. No one should have to go to Benevolent Society for anything to do with forced adoptions, not now. Even if they hadn't apologised they did their damage, and in their best interests they did apologise. They are millionaries. As did the NSW government dismiss the whole 1994 Inquiry, shame. We need ethical organisations who are not afraid to authentically apologise and show these apoligies are for real by actions not just words so the targets are no longer with their stigma and setbacks. So many were left so bereft they live today in a manner no one would want them to, that's shameful also. Cheers Marty and Carmel