91×ÔÅÄÂÛ̳ Weekly's MAX LANE interviewed JOSE RAMOS HORTA after Horta, along with Bishop Carlos Belo, was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
Question: What impact will the award of the Nobel Peace Prize have?
First of all, the Nobel Peace Prize has been awarded to Bishop Belo and the people of East Timor, not to me personally. It reflects the work of East Timor supporters around the world; from those involved in the high profile meetings, to those demonstrating in the streets, climbing consulate walls, burning flags, spray-painting walls, all activists who have made sure that public attention is drawn to the issue.
The prize opens doors around the world for the resistance in institutions and governments that previously weren't interested. It greatly adds to the legitimacy of the struggle for self-determination.
As for the impact on the people in East Timor, well, kids who had never phoned before got hold of the telephone number of my mother's place to congratulate me. One of them said they were not too worried about Suharto's visit to Dili because "we are too happy". It created a kind of cooling off effect.
Question: What has been the response here in Australia?
The response from media and from the people has been extraordinary. In general, ordinary Australians have an instinctive sense of justice and side with the underdog. Hearing that East Timor as underdog has received a Nobel Prize gives them enormous satisfaction.
The Australian government gave a very short, succinct statement of congratulations. But I have not received any congratulatory messages from the Labor Party. The Greens and the Democrats, yes. The Greens initiated a motion to the senate congratulating the winners and calling on the government to support self-determination. That was the first time that a motion referring to self-determination was passed in the Senate.
Question: What impact do you think the prize might have on the democratic movement in Indonesia?
I hope that once the emotions have cooled down we can show, I can show, to the Indonesian side that I am not anti-Indonesian. The Indonesian democracy movement can rest assured that I have enormous respect for them, profound sympathy for the problems that they face, profound admiration for their courage.
I am fully aware that the fate of East Timor and the democracy movement in Indonesia are intimately linked, each supports the other. If the Indonesian democracy movement can succeed in the next two or three years then the East Timor problem can be much more easily resolved. Once we have the democratic space in Indonesia to work in it will be easier to have a dialogue on East Timor. The more pressure that is focused on Suharto about East Timor, the more space there is for the opposition to push for change in Indonesia.
I hope that one day we can all celebrate a Nobel Peace Prize winner who is an Indonesian. Maybe it could be Megawati Sukarnoputri, or Sri Bintang or Muchtar Pakpahan or those young activists who are in prison at the moment. Nothing would give me greater pleasure. Even Ali Alatas — if he were to have the courage to stand up for democracy and justice, to bring about peace for East Timor, I would be the first to applaud.
Question: What will be the next stage in the struggle for self-determination?
I can anticipate growing international support, formal recognition and support for the resistance, at least through the vehicle of the Catholic church. Some governments and institutions find it is easier to deal with the church than with the resistance. If diplomatic support has to be channelled through Bishop Belo, and if he is the one they elect as spokesperson for East Timor, instead of Xanana or me, it is fair enough. I have complete confidence in the Bishop.
At another level, despite international support and solidarity pressure, Indonesia is still there and we have to deal with them. I am less optimistic that Jakarta will soften its position in the near future. But our people are euphoric now because finally the international community has acknowledged their struggle.
Question: What are the central strategic concerns of the resistance in East Timor itself?
Our main concern for the past two years has been to re-organise the resistance since the capture of Xanana, Mahuno and Sabalae [head of the clandestine front]. Obviously this task was in the hands of Konis Santana and others in the mountains. Nevertheless it is one of our collective priorities. The role of the resistance in the country is decisive for everything else.
The re-organisation is going well. Despite the continuous presence of a huge number of Indonesian troops, there is a strengthening of the armed resistance. Another top priority for the leadership in the country is that the armed and political fronts are developed together. I am confident that in a year or two this process of re-organisation will be completed.
We have tried to forge more links with the Indonesian democracy movement; not only us outside, but between the resistance in East Timor and the East Timorese students in Indonesia and the democracy movement.
The CNRM has developed dialogue with East Timorese in the Indonesian administration. Some are very honest, decent people, real Timorese; some might be more willing participants within the system. The CNRM invites every one of them to look to the future without any anxiety, any fear that they would be persecuted or discriminated against if independence became a reality.
We cannot afford to waste skills, and we cannot afford persecution. The policy of the CNRM is reconciliation so that everybody can put their energies into reconstruction of the country.
The mobilisation of young people in the big towns remains a priority. As in other countries, for example South Korea and Indonesia, the youth always play a crucial role. Apart from their energy, their dedication, they also are the future. The resistance as a whole believes that, apart from the armed resistance, the youth's activism is fundamental to the progress of the struggle.
Question: In the countries that you mentioned workers have also started to organise. Is there any potential for this in East Timor?
On that front we are weak. They are not organised, but workers in East Timor do join in demonstrations, support their children and the students. If it is difficult in Indonesia, it is even worse in East Timor. Muchtar Pakpahan from the SBSI independent union in Indonesia tried to have delegates in East Timor, but he himself lost contact with them.
Question: What kind of demands should be at the centre of the campaign here in Australia?
The most significant, meaningful thing the Australian government could do is to withdraw de jure recognition of the Indonesian annexation.
I appeal for solidarity, for support for refugees. I respect that under Australian laws each must be interviewed to ascertain whether they are genuine refugees, but this is not the main intention of the Australian government. They are looking for a way to get rid of them, send them back or dump them in Portugal. I would appeal for support for the refugees who want to stay here.
The East Timorese community here have played a model role. They use the freedom of expression in this country to demonstrate, but they have never been involved in any violence or broken Australian laws.
I appeal to each single individual who reads this newspaper to go to the rallies commemorating the Dili massacre on November 12. If you are a reader of 91×ÔÅÄÂÛ̳ and you don't go to these rallies, we are unhappy, we are sad. November 12 is a time that we who are abroad, who do not feel persecution, who have freedom, food, and shelter, can honour the dead. The least we can do is to honour the people in East Timor who are struggling, honour the persecuted in Indonesia. Let's march at November 12 and also bring banners supporting the Indonesian democracy movement.